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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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from Australia for science and reason

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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yes it's the skeptics own podcast

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episode number 577 for the third of

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November 2019

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this is Richard Saunders coming to you

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this week from the Melbourne studios of

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the skeptic zone well otherwise known as

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the house of my friend and longtime

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skeptic dr. Steve Roberts I'm in

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Melbourne to have a quick visit and chat

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to some people about the upcoming

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skeptic on in early December in fact I

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had a really nice evening just a few

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days ago with some of the vic skeptics

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committee we made a little promotional

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video for the convention and i must say

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I'm very impressed with the venue which

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is in Melbourne University but more

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about that I think on next week's show

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as I chat to some more people about the

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upcoming convention on this week's show

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on this week's show homeopathy again

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again with the homeopathy we speak once

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more to Michael Marshall from the good

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thinking society in the UK because the

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head of the NHS in the UK has launched a

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very outspoken attack on homeopathy and

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the peddling of deadly anti vaccine

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myths Michael Marshall will fill us in

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on the latest from that story after that

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it's part two of the psych on interviews

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by guest reporter Rob Palmer this week

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Rob talks to Elizabeth Loftus about

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false memories

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Jim Underdown about investigating

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paranormal claims Janis boyington about

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facilitated communication and Joe

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Schwartz about demystifying science then

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to round off this week's episode another

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reading from the skeptic by the editor

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Tim Mendham Tim is going to read an

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article called geeks gamers nerds and

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kids now what is the crossover between

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nerds and skeptics probably quite a lot

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when I think about it that's coming up

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to round off the show well that's all

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from me at the moment it's time for me

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to run out the door and have a rest

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because last night

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Steve took me out to just around the

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corner

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to an all-you-can-eat Sri Lankan

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restaurant holy mackerel

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actually there wasn't any macaron menu

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there were lots of wonderful vegetarian

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curries in a few meat ones and these

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beautifully cooked Sri Lankan food if

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you're in fitzroy north while I go

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outside and recover from last night's

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dinner I hope you enjoy this kept exam

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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joining me now on the line from

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Liverpool in the UK it's Michael

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Marshall hello Marsh hey Richard how you

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doing I'm doing really well thanks for

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this a quick interview a quick catch-up

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because just when I woke up this morning

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I'm seeing lots of news coming out of

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the UK regarding homeopathy can you give

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our listeners a quick overview about

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this yeah absolutely so remember I was

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on a couple of months ago talking about

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the case we're bringing against the

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Society of homeopaths or rather the

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government body that's given a stamp of

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legitimacy to this site you've

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homeopaths and what actually happened is

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the head of NHS England so the head of

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the NHS here in the UK has actually

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written a letter of support for a kind

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of appeal support for our case and he

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sent this letter which is quite a robust

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letter I was very surprised to see how

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how strong and actually was he said to

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the to the Professional Standards

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Authority who were creditor start

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appointee pass and this letter is

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explaining how it's misleading and

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dangerous for homeopathy to get

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government accreditation it even goes as

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far as to say and it's a probably

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probably further than I would say he

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says that anything that gives a veneer

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of legitimacy to homeopathy gives the

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opportunity for chances to con the

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public out of out of their money and and

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for the health of risk which was

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incredibly strong stuff and not only did

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he send this letter to the Professional

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Standards Authority he also sent to

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every national newspaper in the UK and

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so it was actually front page of The

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Daily Mail print edition today the main

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story was the NHS head of the NHS

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throwing his support behind our calls to

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have the society HomePath stricken from

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the government register so it's been

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quite a an incredible day of coverage

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they approached every single national

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newspaper in the UK has a cover story

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I've been on several national radio

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stations talking about it and to have

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the support and the weight of the NHS

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behind what we're doing is just a

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incredible incredible development it

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really is what what do you attribute it

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the interest in the media such a big

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interest in the media to this story well

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I think there's a couple of elements to

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it really first of all it's not often

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that the head of the HS comes out and

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makes a statement like this it's it's

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pretty much unprecedented he

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occasionally said some things about

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homeopathy but for him to be so specific

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about what needs to be done is is pretty

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huge really so there's that and there's

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also as it happens at the moment the

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Daily Mail is running a very very

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high-profile campaign about vaccinations

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they're trying to if their campaign to

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as they call it end vaccine ignorance

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and to raise awareness in the public of

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the importance of vaccines so it's kind

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of a perfect time for the mailto to

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splash on this quite quite significantly

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and I think it also comes just as we see

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we're seeing a lot of stories in the UK

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press in the pond about the falling

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vaccination rates we are starting to get

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to a position where vaccination rates

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are dropping quite significantly and

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fortunately because we've got a media

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who remembers the last time around and

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remembers the part they played the last

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time around the UK media is surprisingly

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responsible when it comes to vaccination

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information so as we see more and more

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people starting to eschew vaccines and

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more and more people like homeopathy

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saying that vaccines dangerous and all

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this kind of all the kind of

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misinformation we see the nuclear media

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is immediately recognizing the dangers

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of this and is stepping in to sort of

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start their own campaign to point out

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how dangerous it is and how important is

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that we vaccinate so I think it's coming

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at just at the right time where the

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media has the right source of

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sensibility for this and just as it

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becomes it's becoming a significant

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enough issue for us to be concerned

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about UK and I think it is also credit

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to you and the good thinking Society for

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helping to provide the information and

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getting publicity out there getting the

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general awareness of the community to a

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state that these sort of things are

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happening and what I'll do Marsh

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after we say goodbye I'll read a little

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bit about what the Daily Mail had to say

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in regards to this story but what

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prompted do you think the head of the

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NHS to make such a strong statement well

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it's hard to know

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for sure but I do know that at the

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moment the society homeopaths is seeking

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to be recreated for 2020 and as part of

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that the PSA the body who recreates them

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has sort of cast a wide net looking for

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opinions and expertise and experience

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about whether the psychopath should

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retain their status and in doing that I

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obviously sent them a my opinion of my

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response which was we do have concerns

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about the society homeopaths and if you

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wonder what those concerns are look to

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the legal case we're currently pretty

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damaged and a few because that contains

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a lot of health concerns yeah but I also

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emailed and wrote to several different

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sort of medical bodies and medical

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authorities who've been vocal about

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homeopathy and vaccinations and one of

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them was NHS England and Simon Stephens

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the head of it NHS England so I actually

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emailed NHS England and said this

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consultation kind of thing is happening

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with the PSA and if you feel strongly

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about this as we do might be worth you

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sending some some faults over I heard

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back from their office from Simon

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Stephens office saying thanks for bring

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this to our attention we'll look into

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this and I didn't hear anything further

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so it might be that they were always

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planning to send this letter it might be

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that they've independently come across

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it but certainly no I brought it to

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their attention and lo and behold a

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little wilder to this this incredibly

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strong letter gets sent not just to the

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PSA but to every national newspaper so

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it might actually be that we played some

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part of it a good thinking to get this

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get this whole wheel moving great Marsh

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thank you very much for that quick

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update and I'm going to be very

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interested to see what's going to happen

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over the next few weeks with the

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response from the homeopaths and various

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people crying foul and bringing up all

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sorts of objections but I think things

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are on the right track it definitely

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feels that way and fingers crossed in

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the next few months I'll be able to come

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back and advise you of the next kind of

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victory in our campaign absolutely once

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again Michael Marshall from the good

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and this comes from the daily mail

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online daily mail code on UK NH s chief

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Simon Stevin blasts homeopathy as

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dangerous and blames the industry for

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fuelling anti-vaxxer Minh Stevens has

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urged medical watchdog to delist Society

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of homeopaths described some homeopaths

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as chances who con public to part with

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money but the group says it does not

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promote any treatment contrary to NHS

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guidance this is by Sophie Borland and

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it was published on the 28th of October

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the head of NHS today launches an

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outspoken attack on the homeopathy

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industry for peddling deadly anti

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vaccine myths Simon Stephens accuses

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practitioners of spreading toxic

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misinformation about jabs which pose

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quote a significant danger to human

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health end quote in a key intervention

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he urges the medical watchdog to delist

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the Society of homeopaths from its

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official register of professional

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organisations saying the body's

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inclusion sends a message to patients

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that homeopathic remedies are as safe

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and effective as clinically tested

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medicines mr. Stevens described some

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homeopaths as chances who are conning

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the public to part with their

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hard-earned cash he also warns that some

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therapists are pushing ineffective

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homeopathic vaccines which leave

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patients exposed to deadly diseases such

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as measles but the Society of homeopaths

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the UK's largest group of registered

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practitioners insists that it does not

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promote any treatment contrary to NHS

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guidance including vaccinations the item

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goes on to say in his letter mr. Stevens

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says he has serious concerns about the

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Society's inclusion because the practice

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of homeopathy remained fundamentally

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flawed he said its accreditation would

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give a false impression to patients that

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homeopathic remedies are as trusted as

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the treatments used by doctors nurses

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and other professionals on the register

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quote this is a vital issue at a time

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when there is a rise of misinformation

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about vaccines some of which is

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apparently promoted by homeopathy and

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which poses a significant danger to

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human health

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end quote he adds emphasizing his point

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last night mr. Stevens said quote

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anything that gives homeopathy a veer of

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credibility risks chances being able to

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con more people into parting with their

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hard-earned cash in return for bogus

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treatments which at best do nothing and

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at worst can be potentially dangerous

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end quote we read on later where Michael

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marshal is quoted Michael marshal of the

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pro science charity good thinking said

301
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quote any organization or practitioner

302
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who is spreading anti-vaccine

303
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is particularly dangerous right now end

304
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quote

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email is urging the government to launch

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a mass publicity drive advocating the

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safety of vaccines and that particular

308
00:13:02,290 --> 00:12:57,980
story comes to us from The Daily Mail

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Daily Mail Co UK and I will put a link

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in this week's show notes

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hey Richard

312
00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:31,880
oh hi Trish hi would you like a coffee

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yeah thanks what are you working on I'm

314
00:13:37,889 --> 00:13:35,600
trying to come up with a new promo to

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play on the sceptic zone who's it for

316
00:13:43,870 --> 00:13:41,360
good thinking Society in the UK you know

317
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these oh yeah I know them the guys who

318
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recently chased the homeopaths out of

319
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the UK public health system oh did they

320
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yeah they campaigned and lobbied

321
00:13:53,889 --> 00:13:50,750
government for a while and now you

322
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cannot get homeopathy on the NHS so they

323
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can now spend public money on health

324
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care that works Yeah right look I'll

325
00:14:04,150 --> 00:13:59,600
mention that in the promo now their

326
00:14:06,009 --> 00:14:04,160
website is good thinking society org and

327
00:14:07,509 --> 00:14:06,019
that website is a good resource for

328
00:14:09,519 --> 00:14:07,519
learning more about quackery

329
00:14:10,900 --> 00:14:09,529
thanks Trish that gives me something

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00:14:17,150 --> 00:14:10,910
good to think about

331
00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:23,600
[Music]

332
00:14:28,980 --> 00:14:26,910
hi this is Rob Palmer also known as the

333
00:14:31,050 --> 00:14:28,990
well-known skeptic I ran for such

334
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:31,060
publications as the skeptical Inquirer

335
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:32,890
and I'm also involved with the guerrilla

336
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:37,410
skepticism on Wikipedia project gso w

337
00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:39,850
this week I bring you part two of my

338
00:14:43,110 --> 00:14:42,310
interview series from saikhan 2019 in

339
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:43,120
Las Vegas

340
00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:45,850
I talked to Elizabeth Loftus about false

341
00:14:48,750 --> 00:14:46,570
memories

342
00:14:51,780 --> 00:14:48,760
Jim Underdown about investigating

343
00:14:54,510 --> 00:14:51,790
paranormal claims Jan is a blatant about

344
00:15:03,930 --> 00:14:54,520
facilitated communication and Joe Swartz

345
00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:03,940
about the mystifying science just ran

346
00:15:08,310 --> 00:15:06,370
into Elizabeth Loftus and she's going to

347
00:15:10,500 --> 00:15:08,320
be a speaker at the conference right now

348
00:15:13,170 --> 00:15:10,510
she's signing an autograph of witness

349
00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:13,180
for the defense for ED there there you

350
00:15:22,950 --> 00:15:18,490
go and now I'm going to ask her so

351
00:15:24,900 --> 00:15:22,960
thanks for doing this what is your

352
00:15:27,890 --> 00:15:24,910
presentation going to be about well it's

353
00:15:32,610 --> 00:15:27,900
called the fiction of memory and it's

354
00:15:35,130 --> 00:15:32,620
it's about well research that I and

355
00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:35,140
other psychologists have done on how it

356
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:37,090
is that people come to believe and

357
00:15:43,620 --> 00:15:39,490
remember that they did things or saw

358
00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:43,630
things that they didn't do or see how do

359
00:15:47,790 --> 00:15:45,730
people develop false beliefs and false

360
00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:47,800
memories so does that include when

361
00:15:52,500 --> 00:15:50,290
someone may be miss remember something

362
00:15:54,260 --> 00:15:52,510
so that actually was an event but they

363
00:15:58,080 --> 00:15:54,270
don't remember it properly

364
00:16:00,240 --> 00:15:58,090
well that's part of the work and many of

365
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:00,250
the experiments that I've done show how

366
00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:03,010
easy it is to change people's memory for

367
00:16:08,130 --> 00:16:05,650
an event that they actually did see but

368
00:16:11,100 --> 00:16:08,140
what's even more stunning is when we can

369
00:16:13,260 --> 00:16:11,110
plant an entire event in the minds of

370
00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:13,270
people for something that didn't happen

371
00:16:17,850 --> 00:16:15,370
I mean give me an example well you know

372
00:16:19,620 --> 00:16:17,860
make them believe that they were lost in

373
00:16:21,690 --> 00:16:19,630
a shopping mall and frightened and

374
00:16:24,690 --> 00:16:21,700
crying or that they were attacked by an

375
00:16:26,260 --> 00:16:24,700
animal or they witnessed a person being

376
00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:26,270
demonically possessed

377
00:16:30,490 --> 00:16:28,130
when that never happened at all but it

378
00:16:32,170 --> 00:16:30,500
never happened that's amazing and and

379
00:16:34,690 --> 00:16:32,180
that you know that's really amazing

380
00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:34,700
because people I know on even mundane

381
00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:36,770
things don't think they challenged me

382
00:16:39,910 --> 00:16:38,330
it's like no I cannot be wrong I

383
00:16:41,620 --> 00:16:39,920
remembered that exactly and you cannot

384
00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:41,630
convince me otherwise and it's a little

385
00:16:44,980 --> 00:16:43,130
thing but this is like a huge thing and

386
00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:44,990
people make it up in their minds these

387
00:16:50,500 --> 00:16:47,450
are huge huge what we call rich false

388
00:16:53,410 --> 00:16:50,510
memories Wow how did you get involved in

389
00:16:57,570 --> 00:16:53,420
this kind of research I was a graduate

390
00:17:00,340 --> 00:16:57,580
student studying psychology and I

391
00:17:03,490 --> 00:17:00,350
started to do some work with a professor

392
00:17:06,670 --> 00:17:03,500
on memory just really very theoretical

393
00:17:10,810 --> 00:17:06,680
kinds of memory work and then after I

394
00:17:13,660 --> 00:17:10,820
got my PhD I wanted to study memory for

395
00:17:16,090 --> 00:17:13,670
something that really mattered like the

396
00:17:19,329 --> 00:17:16,100
memory of people for crimes accidents

397
00:17:22,090 --> 00:17:19,339
and other events that would be important

398
00:17:25,930 --> 00:17:22,100
to the legal system and began to design

399
00:17:28,570 --> 00:17:25,940
experiments and now I've got 40 years of

400
00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:28,580
having done them well fascinating and so

401
00:17:34,300 --> 00:17:30,290
alright so besides the memory issue what

402
00:17:36,430 --> 00:17:34,310
other aspect of cell say you know

403
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:36,440
pushing back on pseudoscience or altmed

404
00:17:43,930 --> 00:17:41,290
and what interests you mostly mostly I'm

405
00:17:47,860 --> 00:17:43,940
scientist who studies memory and while

406
00:17:51,460 --> 00:17:47,870
memory can go awry and my plate is full

407
00:17:53,470 --> 00:17:51,470
just about problems in the world thank

408
00:17:57,370 --> 00:17:53,480
you much for the time okay sure forward

409
00:17:59,740 --> 00:17:57,380
to hearing you talk alright I just came

410
00:18:01,480 --> 00:17:59,750
from my first workshop here which was

411
00:18:03,610 --> 00:18:01,490
the investigators which was a joint

412
00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:03,620
presentation by Kenny Biddle and the

413
00:18:06,790 --> 00:18:05,570
gentleman standing in front of me and

414
00:18:09,070 --> 00:18:06,800
please introduce yourself

415
00:18:12,610 --> 00:18:09,080
I'm Jim Underdown executive director of

416
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:12,620
the Center for inquiry West and chair of

417
00:18:15,850 --> 00:18:15,050
the Center for inquiry investigations

418
00:18:18,100 --> 00:18:15,860
group ah

419
00:18:21,390 --> 00:18:18,110
and what was your presentation about

420
00:18:24,910 --> 00:18:21,400
workshop yeah just techniques of

421
00:18:28,570 --> 00:18:24,920
investigations that we've had over the

422
00:18:30,790 --> 00:18:28,580
years and bringing up examples trying to

423
00:18:32,710 --> 00:18:30,800
highlight some of those techniques okay

424
00:18:35,110 --> 00:18:32,720
and you split the time with Kenny and

425
00:18:36,730 --> 00:18:35,120
you guys talked about slightly different

426
00:18:37,930 --> 00:18:36,740
things and then we had two different

427
00:18:39,549 --> 00:18:37,940
exercises at

428
00:18:41,470 --> 00:18:39,559
you want to describe what yours was I

429
00:18:44,980 --> 00:18:41,480
found that interesting I participated in

430
00:18:47,019 --> 00:18:44,990
that yeah the case we did that people

431
00:18:50,460 --> 00:18:47,029
would try to solve was something called

432
00:18:55,389 --> 00:18:50,470
the Charlotte angel which is a real case

433
00:19:00,669 --> 00:18:55,399
involving a light based angel that shone

434
00:19:02,639 --> 00:19:00,679
upon a wall in a intensive care unit at

435
00:19:06,039 --> 00:19:02,649
a hospital in Charlotte North Carolina

436
00:19:09,299 --> 00:19:06,049
immediately after a sick young girl was

437
00:19:12,310 --> 00:19:09,309
taken off her respirator and she

438
00:19:16,450 --> 00:19:12,320
apparently improved right away after the

439
00:19:19,269 --> 00:19:16,460
angel was spotted and her mother and

440
00:19:22,990 --> 00:19:19,279
some of the nurses on staff attributed

441
00:19:26,019 --> 00:19:23,000
her improved health to the presence of

442
00:19:27,759 --> 00:19:26,029
the angel alleged angel and so then as a

443
00:19:29,590 --> 00:19:27,769
participant in this what we did was

444
00:19:31,419 --> 00:19:29,600
there were three supposed witnesses so I

445
00:19:32,980 --> 00:19:31,429
guess we're using testimony that was

446
00:19:34,210 --> 00:19:32,990
recorded somewhere and we were able to

447
00:19:35,590 --> 00:19:34,220
ask them questions that was quite

448
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:35,600
fascinating how did you prep those

449
00:19:41,379 --> 00:19:38,090
people I was on a show called miracle

450
00:19:43,570 --> 00:19:41,389
detective and they we actually

451
00:19:46,930 --> 00:19:43,580
investigated this case so I looked at

452
00:19:49,180 --> 00:19:46,940
some of that old footage and got some of

453
00:19:52,029 --> 00:19:49,190
the actual testimonies from the mother

454
00:19:55,060 --> 00:19:52,039
the real mother and one of the nurses

455
00:19:57,519 --> 00:19:55,070
who was involved and then we created the

456
00:19:59,529 --> 00:19:57,529
third witness just based so the hospital

457
00:20:02,529 --> 00:19:59,539
admin person a hospital admin so you

458
00:20:04,149 --> 00:20:02,539
guys would have someone to go to to ask

459
00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:04,159
about the setup of the hallway and all

460
00:20:07,090 --> 00:20:05,570
that no I thought was clever that when

461
00:20:08,799 --> 00:20:07,100
you ask the sort of wrong category

462
00:20:09,789 --> 00:20:08,809
question to a person they would say no I

463
00:20:11,710 --> 00:20:09,799
don't know think about that talk to the

464
00:20:12,940 --> 00:20:11,720
other person yeah yeah and that's like

465
00:20:14,769 --> 00:20:12,950
real life if you were going to talk to

466
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:14,779
the real people involved yeah right I

467
00:20:18,730 --> 00:20:16,970
mean ask any cop or any lawyer asking

468
00:20:21,249 --> 00:20:18,740
the right questions is a huge part of

469
00:20:23,919 --> 00:20:21,259
their jobs all right so that I had I had

470
00:20:26,110 --> 00:20:23,929
fun myself and learned a lot and so I'm

471
00:20:29,259 --> 00:20:26,120
asking this everybody else also who you

472
00:20:33,340 --> 00:20:29,269
also most interested in seeing present

473
00:20:36,700 --> 00:20:33,350
at this conference boy it's a long list

474
00:20:40,060 --> 00:20:36,710
Brian green I'm a big fan of Elizabeth

475
00:20:45,369 --> 00:20:40,070
Loftus as work but there are a few

476
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:45,379
things that that a few presentations of

477
00:20:48,070 --> 00:20:47,210
people that I don't know that I think

478
00:20:50,230 --> 00:20:48,080
might be

479
00:20:52,330 --> 00:20:50,240
interesting so it's gonna be a good

480
00:20:54,130 --> 00:20:52,340
weekend yeah it's gonna be fantastic I'm

481
00:20:54,549 --> 00:20:54,140
glad to be here okay thank you very much

482
00:20:59,110 --> 00:20:54,559
Jim

483
00:21:01,659 --> 00:20:59,120
thank you wandering the halls of saikhan

484
00:21:04,330 --> 00:21:01,669
again and I ran into a featured speaker

485
00:21:05,620 --> 00:21:04,340
from yesterday's lineup and she happens

486
00:21:07,659 --> 00:21:05,630
to also be a member of the gorilla

487
00:21:10,389 --> 00:21:07,669
skeptics team and she did a presentation

488
00:21:11,860 --> 00:21:10,399
on facilitated communications please

489
00:21:14,409 --> 00:21:11,870
introduce yourself and give us an

490
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:14,419
overview of your talk hi my name is

491
00:21:19,539 --> 00:21:17,450
Janice Boynton and I gave a talk about

492
00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:19,549
facilitated communication which is a

493
00:21:24,419 --> 00:21:22,370
discredited technique that's used with

494
00:21:27,820 --> 00:21:24,429
people with severe communication

495
00:21:31,389 --> 00:21:27,830
difficulties unfortunately even though

496
00:21:34,810 --> 00:21:31,399
it was debunked in around 1994-95 it's

497
00:21:37,029 --> 00:21:34,820
still being used at universities and

498
00:21:38,980 --> 00:21:37,039
colleges and promoted as a valid

499
00:21:41,590 --> 00:21:38,990
technique even though it isn't valid

500
00:21:45,399 --> 00:21:41,600
technique so the talk was kind of a

501
00:21:50,409 --> 00:21:45,409
history short history about f.c and also

502
00:21:52,149 --> 00:21:50,419
some thoughts about why it still

503
00:21:54,279 --> 00:21:52,159
continues to you know the like

504
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:54,289
psychology behind it you know and the

505
00:21:58,259 --> 00:21:56,210
thing that personally fascinated me and

506
00:22:00,580 --> 00:21:58,269
I knew this before is that you're

507
00:22:03,460 --> 00:22:00,590
personally involved with this yeah I

508
00:22:06,700 --> 00:22:03,470
became a facilitator f.c was introduced

509
00:22:10,029 --> 00:22:06,710
in the United States around 1990 I

510
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:10,039
became involved with it in 1992 it was

511
00:22:15,190 --> 00:22:13,250
still kind of in the spreading across

512
00:22:17,649 --> 00:22:15,200
the United States stage so people were

513
00:22:21,070 --> 00:22:17,659
pretty enthusiastic about it the the

514
00:22:22,779 --> 00:22:21,080
evidence-based research hadn't quite

515
00:22:26,129 --> 00:22:22,789
developed to the point that it has now

516
00:22:30,220 --> 00:22:26,139
and yeah I became involved with it and

517
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:30,230
unfortunately in my situation it turned

518
00:22:36,399 --> 00:22:32,450
into a situation where we needed to test

519
00:22:38,409 --> 00:22:36,409
the case that I was working on and it

520
00:22:41,409 --> 00:22:38,419
turns out and I learned through

521
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:41,419
double-blind testing that I was the

522
00:22:46,370 --> 00:22:43,650
author of the FC messages

523
00:22:49,340 --> 00:22:46,380
and the science actually has since then

524
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:49,350
has backed up my personal experiences at

525
00:22:54,500 --> 00:22:51,930
any time facilitated communication is

526
00:22:56,360 --> 00:22:54,510
tested in controlled settings the

527
00:22:59,600 --> 00:22:56,370
facilitators are always the ones not

528
00:23:01,370 --> 00:22:59,610
only influencing the messages coming out

529
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:01,380
through facilitated communication but

530
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:02,970
they're actually controlling it so

531
00:23:07,310 --> 00:23:04,770
what's so what's the reaction been to

532
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:07,320
people who still do facilitated

533
00:23:13,430 --> 00:23:10,170
communications well they they don't

534
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:13,440
believe in the evidence-based testing in

535
00:23:17,900 --> 00:23:15,090
fact you're not even supposed to test it

536
00:23:20,870 --> 00:23:17,910
they consider it a an affront to people

537
00:23:24,230 --> 00:23:20,880
with disabilities to actually test the

538
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:24,240
messages so the reasoning that they use

539
00:23:29,450 --> 00:23:26,610
in their in their their own studies it

540
00:23:32,420 --> 00:23:29,460
kind of runs along the lines of FC works

541
00:23:35,510 --> 00:23:32,430
because people saying FC say it works

542
00:23:37,010 --> 00:23:35,520
are using FC say it works so a little

543
00:23:38,660 --> 00:23:37,020
bit of circular reasoning that's so much

544
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:38,670
like other things like that that that

545
00:23:42,260 --> 00:23:40,170
can't possibly work like homeopathy for

546
00:23:43,850 --> 00:23:42,270
example sure people who swear it works

547
00:23:45,940 --> 00:23:43,860
and since they swear it works it has to

548
00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:45,950
work yeah I happen to believe that

549
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:50,370
because because the evidence hasn't

550
00:23:54,380 --> 00:23:52,890
changed people's minds about facilitated

551
00:23:57,800 --> 00:23:54,390
communication I think it's more of a

552
00:24:00,590 --> 00:23:57,810
belief system than actual it's not a

553
00:24:01,940 --> 00:24:00,600
communication technique yeah but as I

554
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:01,950
understand that there are actually

555
00:24:06,050 --> 00:24:03,570
agencies which have come out publicly

556
00:24:08,900 --> 00:24:06,060
against it now right sure there's over

557
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:08,910
20 major organizations like American

558
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:10,770
speech language and Hearing Association

559
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:13,770
in several different countries not just

560
00:24:19,340 --> 00:24:17,010
America but Canada and Australia a lot

561
00:24:23,770 --> 00:24:19,350
of the behavior analysis organizations

562
00:24:25,820 --> 00:24:23,780
have opposition policies as well as the

563
00:24:27,710 --> 00:24:25,830
organizations like the International

564
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:27,720
Society for augmentative and alternative

565
00:24:33,740 --> 00:24:31,530
communication there's also I want to

566
00:24:36,830 --> 00:24:33,750
just highlight one

567
00:24:39,259 --> 00:24:36,840
it's called Lake Region Community

568
00:24:41,060 --> 00:24:39,269
College and they have a policy opposing

569
00:24:44,210 --> 00:24:41,070
facilitated communication for people

570
00:24:46,070 --> 00:24:44,220
coming into their college to take

571
00:24:47,570 --> 00:24:46,080
classes because they can't tell the

572
00:24:49,430 --> 00:24:47,580
difference they can't tell who's

573
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:49,440
actually doing the coursework the person

574
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:51,330
with disabilities or the facilitator so

575
00:24:56,539 --> 00:24:54,690
they allow people with this and

576
00:24:58,580 --> 00:24:56,549
encourage people with disabilities to

577
00:25:00,409 --> 00:24:58,590
come into the classrooms but they need

578
00:25:02,690 --> 00:25:00,419
to be using valid augmentative and

579
00:25:04,340 --> 00:25:02,700
alternative communication devices and

580
00:25:07,039 --> 00:25:04,350
techniques that show that they are

581
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:07,049
independently doing a class work and if

582
00:25:10,220 --> 00:25:08,490
I recall right from your presentation

583
00:25:12,259 --> 00:25:10,230
you mentioned Syracuse University as

584
00:25:14,869 --> 00:25:12,269
people still saying this is real

585
00:25:16,940 --> 00:25:14,879
yes um Syracuse University is kind of on

586
00:25:19,820 --> 00:25:16,950
ground zero it's where a facilitated

587
00:25:22,249 --> 00:25:19,830
communication started in the in 1990 and

588
00:25:24,980 --> 00:25:22,259
it continues to promote facilitated

589
00:25:27,409 --> 00:25:24,990
communication today despite all the

590
00:25:30,850 --> 00:25:27,419
evidence and that's an interesting case

591
00:25:34,730 --> 00:25:30,860
because so the communication Sciences

592
00:25:37,999 --> 00:25:34,740
Department in Syracuse University has an

593
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:38,009
open statement that they do not support

594
00:25:42,619 --> 00:25:39,690
facilitated communication because

595
00:25:46,789 --> 00:25:42,629
they're evidence-based but the Institute

596
00:25:49,129 --> 00:25:46,799
for the Center for community inclusion

597
00:25:51,379 --> 00:25:49,139
and I think that's the name of it is

598
00:25:52,490 --> 00:25:51,389
it's through the Education Department

599
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:52,500
and they're heavily promoting

600
00:25:56,539 --> 00:25:54,210
facilitated communication of the job

601
00:25:58,039 --> 00:25:56,549
very fascinating subject so fascinating

602
00:26:00,320 --> 00:25:58,049
the whole the whole conference is great

603
00:26:04,519 --> 00:26:00,330
I've really had a good time here so okay

604
00:26:06,049 --> 00:26:04,529
thanks for your time well thank you so

605
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:06,059
we just finished the first session of

606
00:26:11,299 --> 00:26:09,210
psych on speakers and I ran into a

607
00:26:13,190 --> 00:26:11,309
speaker himself and he's speaking

608
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:13,200
tomorrow and you could you please

609
00:26:17,749 --> 00:26:14,850
introduce yourself and tell us what your

610
00:26:20,869 --> 00:26:17,759
topic is hi I'm Josh Schwartz I'm from

611
00:26:22,970 --> 00:26:20,879
Montreal McGill University and I direct

612
00:26:25,090 --> 00:26:22,980
the University's office for science and

613
00:26:27,860 --> 00:26:25,100
society where our mandate is related to

614
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:27,870
demystify science and separate central

615
00:26:33,150 --> 00:26:30,570
nonsense and my background is chemistry

616
00:26:35,790 --> 00:26:33,160
so I deal a lot with that

617
00:26:38,490 --> 00:26:35,800
and the topic that I'll be addressing is

618
00:26:40,790 --> 00:26:38,500
getting the chemistry right because

619
00:26:43,770 --> 00:26:40,800
there are so many things on the internet

620
00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:43,780
where they get the chemistry wrong and

621
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:48,130
you know it's obviously we know people

622
00:26:52,860 --> 00:26:50,890
like the food babe etc who are not very

623
00:26:54,360 --> 00:26:52,870
well versed in any aspect of science

624
00:26:57,090 --> 00:26:54,370
they're not surprised that they get

625
00:27:00,060 --> 00:26:57,100
things wrong but it's already yeah but

626
00:27:02,730 --> 00:27:00,070
sometimes you know there are people who

627
00:27:04,650 --> 00:27:02,740
are sort of legitimate scientists who

628
00:27:06,540 --> 00:27:04,660
get things wrong too because they are

629
00:27:08,820 --> 00:27:06,550
outside of the area of their expertise

630
00:27:11,970 --> 00:27:08,830
so you tackle both of those oh yeah we

631
00:27:15,090 --> 00:27:11,980
tackle both of those and we do some hard

632
00:27:17,220 --> 00:27:15,100
science as well you know explaining the

633
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:17,230
row of chemistry in everyday life and I

634
00:27:21,060 --> 00:27:19,570
focus also a lot of nutrition because

635
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:21,070
the human body of course is the most

636
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:22,450
complex machine on the face of the earth

637
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:25,810
and we put the most complex things that

638
00:27:31,410 --> 00:27:28,690
we call food into it and expect to get

639
00:27:35,130 --> 00:27:31,420
simple solutions but there aren't any so

640
00:27:40,170 --> 00:27:35,140
we deal a lot with that but tomorrow

641
00:27:43,050 --> 00:27:40,180
I'll be taking a look at some issues for

642
00:27:47,090 --> 00:27:43,060
example whether or not heating plastics

643
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:47,100
and microwave oven releases toxins and

644
00:27:53,430 --> 00:27:50,770
I'm going to address one particular

645
00:27:55,770 --> 00:27:53,440
issue because there's a lot of talk out

646
00:27:57,750 --> 00:27:55,780
there that if you heat plastics in a

647
00:27:59,730 --> 00:27:57,760
microwave oven you get dioxins and

648
00:28:04,320 --> 00:27:59,740
people have heard of the oxidants which

649
00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:04,330
indeed are a problem the tetra chloro

650
00:28:08,610 --> 00:28:06,130
dye benzyl dioxin is probably the most

651
00:28:09,990 --> 00:28:08,620
toxic substance ever made although it's

652
00:28:12,510 --> 00:28:10,000
never made on purpose it's always a

653
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:12,520
byproduct of some some process however

654
00:28:16,620 --> 00:28:14,410
they get the chemistry wrong when they

655
00:28:19,460 --> 00:28:16,630
talk about heating plastics and in the

656
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:19,470
microwave because in order to get

657
00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:22,090
dioxins you must have chlorine in the

658
00:28:28,110 --> 00:28:24,130
environment is the chlorinated compound

659
00:28:30,270 --> 00:28:28,120
okay and where they where they basically

660
00:28:31,820 --> 00:28:30,280
launch their attacks from is the

661
00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:31,830
knowledge that if you incinerate

662
00:28:36,570 --> 00:28:34,510
polyvinyl chloride which is a very

663
00:28:39,330 --> 00:28:36,580
commonly used mastic you can generate

664
00:28:40,170 --> 00:28:39,340
the oxidants but the vessels that we use

665
00:28:42,150 --> 00:28:40,180
in microwave

666
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:42,160
are not made of PVC they're made of

667
00:28:46,380 --> 00:28:44,890
polyethylene or polypropylene there's no

668
00:28:49,500 --> 00:28:46,390
chlorine in sight so they cannot

669
00:28:51,420 --> 00:28:49,510
possibly produce dioxins furthermore the

670
00:28:53,850 --> 00:28:51,430
microwave oven is not an incinerator

671
00:28:55,590 --> 00:28:53,860
right right okay make sounds cool I'm

672
00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:55,600
looking forward to that and McGill is

673
00:29:00,060 --> 00:28:57,850
well represented at this conference

674
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:00,070
Jonathan Jerry Jonathan Jerry works for

675
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:03,010
me and he's going to be talking about

676
00:29:07,290 --> 00:29:05,290
some of the victories that we've had in

677
00:29:09,930 --> 00:29:07,300
fighting through the science very cool

678
00:29:12,090 --> 00:29:09,940
looking forward to that and what speaker

679
00:29:14,460 --> 00:29:12,100
besides Jonathan Ari Ari are you most

680
00:29:18,150 --> 00:29:14,470
interested in hearing Manchester and Jen

681
00:29:22,050 --> 00:29:18,160
gondry I followed her and she's very

682
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:22,060
adept at getting her points across and I

683
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:24,370
followed the climate change arguments or

684
00:29:30,620 --> 00:29:26,370
are you coming to the luncheon with not

685
00:29:34,260 --> 00:29:30,630
going to that also comes a luncheon and

686
00:29:37,950 --> 00:29:34,270
I'm very interested in hearing Mikkelson

687
00:29:39,270 --> 00:29:37,960
the gentleman who started Snopes oh yes

688
00:29:42,150 --> 00:29:39,280
that should be fair there's all the good

689
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:42,160
stuff and also I just had the chance

690
00:29:48,090 --> 00:29:44,290
walking in the Hall of meeting royalty

691
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:48,100
because I met James Randi oh yes and

692
00:29:53,580 --> 00:29:50,410
I've known Randy admired him for a very

693
00:29:56,340 --> 00:29:53,590
long time and ten years ago he was our

694
00:29:59,280 --> 00:29:56,350
guest in Montreal for symposium that we

695
00:30:02,850 --> 00:29:59,290
do annually them tortilla public science

696
00:30:05,010 --> 00:30:02,860
symposium and so I've met him many times

697
00:30:08,010 --> 00:30:05,020
since that time and it's always a thrill

698
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:08,020
because I mean he really is the god of

699
00:30:11,820 --> 00:30:10,210
skepticism that's amazing to see him

700
00:30:13,740 --> 00:30:11,830
here yeah we found that just today

701
00:30:15,270 --> 00:30:13,750
before we got here that he was coming I

702
00:30:17,220 --> 00:30:15,280
don't know if his last-minute plans he

703
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:17,230
wasn't you know sure himself or they

704
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:18,490
just kept it under wraps but that was a

705
00:30:23,370 --> 00:30:21,850
quite a nice thing to see him okay okay

706
00:30:28,910 --> 00:30:23,380
thank you very much looking forward to

707
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:31,500
that was part two of my interview series

708
00:30:41,180 --> 00:30:33,970
from saikhan 2019 joining me here on the

709
00:30:51,100 --> 00:30:48,570
[Music]

710
00:30:54,550 --> 00:30:51,110
now here are some announcements from the

711
00:30:58,870 --> 00:30:54,560
skeptical world things you can go and

712
00:31:01,390 --> 00:30:58,880
see and do the Bay Area skeptics inform

713
00:31:03,660 --> 00:31:01,400
us that dr. eugenie Scott will be

714
00:31:06,090 --> 00:31:03,670
talking at the San Francisco

715
00:31:08,950 --> 00:31:06,100
Exploratorium after dark

716
00:31:11,710 --> 00:31:08,960
now the Exploratorium is a wonderful

717
00:31:15,100 --> 00:31:11,720
interactive science museum located on

718
00:31:17,860 --> 00:31:15,110
pier 15 in baku Darrow this is Thursday

719
00:31:20,470 --> 00:31:17,870
the 7th of November Thursday night and

720
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:20,480
that's from 6:00 p.m. until 10:00 p.m.

721
00:31:26,650 --> 00:31:23,570
the theme for the evening is a skeptical

722
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:26,660
one matters of fact how can we know the

723
00:31:31,300 --> 00:31:29,330
truth two facts matter what

724
00:31:34,330 --> 00:31:31,310
distinguishes justified belief from

725
00:31:36,090 --> 00:31:34,340
opinion and why do our personal biases

726
00:31:38,590 --> 00:31:36,100
keep us from seeing the whole picture

727
00:31:41,350 --> 00:31:38,600
join us to learn more about the anchors

728
00:31:44,620 --> 00:31:41,360
of scrupulous science and digital data

729
00:31:47,050 --> 00:31:44,630
and how they can be exploited and the

730
00:31:49,870 --> 00:31:47,060
tools to find the facts for yourself

731
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:49,880
Bay Area skeptics president dr. Eugene

732
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:51,170
EC Scott will be giving a presentation

733
00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:55,730
on why do people reject good science and

734
00:32:00,400 --> 00:31:57,650
the Bay Area skeptics will have tables

735
00:32:03,130 --> 00:32:00,410
demonstrating how to think about and

736
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:03,140
analyze pseudo-scientific claims in

737
00:32:08,770 --> 00:32:06,170
addition there are the usual hundreds of

738
00:32:11,050 --> 00:32:08,780
interactive Exploratorium exhibits for

739
00:32:14,820 --> 00:32:11,060
you to play with it will be a fun-filled

740
00:32:17,500 --> 00:32:14,830
evening for adults alcohol is available

741
00:32:19,870 --> 00:32:17,510
once again that's Thursday the 7th of

742
00:32:23,590 --> 00:32:19,880
November and I will add a link in this

743
00:32:25,420 --> 00:32:23,600
week's show notes and the Canberra

744
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:25,430
skeptics right here in Australia are

745
00:32:31,510 --> 00:32:28,610
presenting a talk effective altruism how

746
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:31,520
to do the most good and that's Tuesday

747
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:33,770
night the 12th of November 6:00 p.m. to

748
00:32:39,220 --> 00:32:37,010
7:30 p.m. at the Belconnen community

749
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:39,230
service which is in Chandler Street

750
00:32:43,810 --> 00:32:41,570
Belconnen the effective altruism is a

751
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:43,820
philosophical and social movement that

752
00:32:48,940 --> 00:32:46,730
uses evidence and reasoning to determine

753
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:48,950
the most effective ways to benefit

754
00:32:52,690 --> 00:32:51,290
others it sounds like a fascinating talk

755
00:32:55,299 --> 00:32:52,700
I wish I could go to all these talks

756
00:32:58,389 --> 00:32:55,309
anyway dinner will follow the lecture

757
00:33:00,580 --> 00:32:58,399
to RSVP for the dinner please email the

758
00:33:04,149 --> 00:33:00,590
Canberra skeptics Canberra skeptics at

759
00:33:07,269 --> 00:33:04,159
gmail.com and for more information head

760
00:33:09,700 --> 00:33:07,279
to WWE and bruh skeptics org

761
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:09,710
or follow the link in this week's show

762
00:33:30,789 --> 00:33:28,730
notes hi my name is Tim Mendham I'm the

763
00:33:32,529 --> 00:33:30,799
executive officer of Australian skeptics

764
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:32,539
and I'm also the editor of our magazine

765
00:33:36,730 --> 00:33:34,730
the skeptic and I'd like to cover

766
00:33:38,889 --> 00:33:36,740
another little article that's published

767
00:33:41,710 --> 00:33:38,899
in the magazine this one is from our

768
00:33:43,409 --> 00:33:41,720
section we call readers in digestible it

769
00:33:45,909 --> 00:33:43,419
basically looks at a whole range of

770
00:33:48,519 --> 00:33:45,919
websites publications that sort of thing

771
00:33:50,859 --> 00:33:48,529
from either the paranormal end of the

772
00:33:53,799 --> 00:33:50,869
scale or from some more serious

773
00:33:56,230 --> 00:33:53,809
skeptical ones this one looks at geeks

774
00:33:58,869 --> 00:33:56,240
gamers nerds and kids and came out of

775
00:34:02,210 --> 00:33:58,879
the sceptic published in March 2019

776
00:34:06,750 --> 00:34:02,220
which was vol 39 number one

777
00:34:13,030 --> 00:34:09,369
in an article in The Guardian published

778
00:34:15,369 --> 00:34:13,040
in November 2012 Debora Hyde who was

779
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:15,379
then the editor of the UK skeptic

780
00:34:19,930 --> 00:34:17,810
magazine on 48 the magazine is no more

781
00:34:22,149 --> 00:34:19,940
although there's a website she described

782
00:34:23,859 --> 00:34:22,159
the rise of skepticism specifically

783
00:34:26,980 --> 00:34:23,869
looking at the proliferation of major

784
00:34:30,129 --> 00:34:26,990
skeptical events blogs podcasts vodcasts

785
00:34:32,980 --> 00:34:30,139
and sundry other casts what is driving

786
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:32,990
this change asked the nerd factor is

787
00:34:37,629 --> 00:34:35,570
undoubtedly in the mix previously a

788
00:34:40,659 --> 00:34:37,639
derisive term and somewhat like the

789
00:34:43,300 --> 00:34:40,669
other n-word and queer it has been

790
00:34:46,810 --> 00:34:43,310
reclaimed by its former victims and is

791
00:34:48,909 --> 00:34:46,820
now regularly wielded with pride I sense

792
00:34:50,950 --> 00:34:48,919
that this rise in social status of the

793
00:34:54,070 --> 00:34:50,960
technically gifted and sartorial is

794
00:34:58,050 --> 00:34:54,080
socially impaired is probably related to

795
00:35:01,660 --> 00:34:58,060
the growth of the IT sector nodi is cool

796
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:01,670
do you remember the old TV show about

797
00:35:06,940 --> 00:35:04,130
radio hams and chemistry students me

798
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:06,950
neither and now we have IT Crowd and Big

799
00:35:11,740 --> 00:35:09,410
Bang Theory and Brian Cox notice how

800
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:11,750
clouds and those are cool so that's

801
00:35:16,210 --> 00:35:14,810
that's her words it is the case that are

802
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:16,220
perhaps surprising proportion of

803
00:35:21,250 --> 00:35:18,050
skeptics and especially young ones work

804
00:35:22,750 --> 00:35:21,260
in IT so there is a strong nerd factor

805
00:35:25,180 --> 00:35:22,760
in many skeptical meetings and

806
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:25,190
discussions perhaps skeptical meetings

807
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:27,770
fulfill a social need that nerds and

808
00:35:31,990 --> 00:35:29,570
geeks find difficult to fulfill as

809
00:35:36,940 --> 00:35:32,000
elsewhere except a course through online

810
00:35:39,130 --> 00:35:36,950
multiplayer gaming you know 2010 skeptic

811
00:35:42,370 --> 00:35:39,140
blog entry titled why and nerds so

812
00:35:43,870 --> 00:35:42,380
unpopular dr. Steve novella was a

813
00:35:46,150 --> 00:35:43,880
founder of the skeptics guide to the

814
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:46,160
universe says that culture is slowly

815
00:35:52,330 --> 00:35:48,530
moving in the direction of valuing

816
00:35:54,820 --> 00:35:52,340
smarts even nerdiness he says Bill Gates

817
00:35:57,670 --> 00:35:54,830
in his ilk and to blame for this to some

818
00:36:00,250 --> 00:35:57,680
degree we now celebrate the alpha nerd

819
00:36:02,620 --> 00:36:00,260
Steve says kids see wealthy powerful

820
00:36:03,420 --> 00:36:02,630
nerds with their attractive mates and I

821
00:36:06,130 --> 00:36:03,430
get the message

822
00:36:08,609 --> 00:36:06,140
computers have done this once the sole

823
00:36:11,530 --> 00:36:08,619
domain of nerds they are now chic

824
00:36:13,930 --> 00:36:11,540
chicness may however only apply in

825
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:13,940
higher education and beyond nerds in

826
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:15,770
high school are often avoided if not

827
00:36:19,780 --> 00:36:18,770
picked on Alexandra Robbins was the

828
00:36:21,430 --> 00:36:19,790
author of the geek

829
00:36:24,430 --> 00:36:21,440
shall inherit the earth which came out

830
00:36:26,410 --> 00:36:24,440
in 2011 says that many of the

831
00:36:28,690 --> 00:36:26,420
differences that cause a student to be

832
00:36:32,110 --> 00:36:28,700
excluded in school are the identical

833
00:36:35,470 --> 00:36:32,120
traits or real-world skills that others

834
00:36:37,510 --> 00:36:35,480
will value love respect or find

835
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:37,520
compelling about that person in

836
00:36:42,010 --> 00:36:39,290
adulthood and outside of the school

837
00:36:43,450 --> 00:36:42,020
setting so it's bad when you're young is

838
00:36:47,170 --> 00:36:43,460
not so bad when you're older

839
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:47,180
in 2010 Jules Evans on his philosophy

840
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:50,570
for life website blog wrote that the

841
00:36:55,900 --> 00:36:52,970
rise of skeptics has gone hand in hand

842
00:36:58,330 --> 00:36:55,910
with the rise of geek culture like

843
00:37:01,270 --> 00:36:58,340
superhero comics sword & Sworcery

844
00:37:03,490 --> 00:37:01,280
fantasy and science fiction many

845
00:37:06,070 --> 00:37:03,500
skeptics are also science fiction

846
00:37:09,940 --> 00:37:06,080
fantasy and superhero nerds who will

847
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:09,950
attend both tan and comic-con indeed

848
00:37:15,430 --> 00:37:12,170
some comic conventions now hold skeptic

849
00:37:18,670 --> 00:37:15,440
side events you could speculate that the

850
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:18,680
skeptics have rejected organized

851
00:37:24,100 --> 00:37:21,290
religion instead they construct their

852
00:37:25,540 --> 00:37:24,110
own just their own disposable religion

853
00:37:27,850 --> 00:37:25,550
out of Batman

854
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:27,860
Gandalf mr. Spock and other pop culture

855
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:32,450
icons superhero movies which are now

856
00:37:37,570 --> 00:37:35,210
mainstream blockbusters often tell the

857
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:37,580
story of the rise of the geek from nerdy

858
00:37:42,190 --> 00:37:40,130
outsider to all-powerful dominant male

859
00:37:44,650 --> 00:37:42,200
you just happen to think of Superman or

860
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:44,660
Iron Man or the Hulk to see examples of

861
00:37:51,010 --> 00:37:47,570
them it is the story of the scientific

862
00:37:53,940 --> 00:37:51,020
intelligentsia their own rise to power

863
00:37:59,680 --> 00:37:53,950
since world war ii turned into myth and

864
00:38:01,780 --> 00:37:59,690
endlessly resold and retold so that's

865
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:01,790
joules talking about that one but what

866
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:03,890
is out there online of a skeptical

867
00:38:09,010 --> 00:38:06,530
nature specifically for geeks gamers

868
00:38:11,980 --> 00:38:09,020
nerds and those kids who look forward to

869
00:38:14,530 --> 00:38:11,990
joining that fraternity and it's largely

870
00:38:17,140 --> 00:38:14,540
seen as a male group though the mix is

871
00:38:19,690 --> 00:38:17,150
definitely changing the answer is it can

872
00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:19,700
be difficult to find geek communities

873
00:38:24,070 --> 00:38:22,730
can be very insular close-knit which is

874
00:38:27,070 --> 00:38:24,080
understandable considering their

875
00:38:29,230 --> 00:38:27,080
experience in younger years you may need

876
00:38:31,540 --> 00:38:29,240
to be on the geek grapevine to pick out

877
00:38:33,430 --> 00:38:31,550
the best places as Amy Whitcroft

878
00:38:35,710 --> 00:38:33,440
self-professed nerd

879
00:38:38,589 --> 00:38:35,720
founder of nerd night social events in

880
00:38:41,099 --> 00:38:38,599
Wellington New Zealand she told in New

881
00:38:43,809 --> 00:38:41,109
Zealand skeptics conference in 2013

882
00:38:45,579 --> 00:38:43,819
forming communities around interests and

883
00:38:48,250 --> 00:38:45,589
beliefs is pretty common behavior

884
00:38:50,020 --> 00:38:48,260
amongst people nerds geeks whatever you

885
00:38:52,450 --> 00:38:50,030
want to call them and no different and

886
00:38:55,650 --> 00:38:52,460
in fact they tend to do so very

887
00:38:59,200 --> 00:38:55,660
enthusiastically the problem is

888
00:39:01,720 --> 00:38:59,210
information on them was slight she says

889
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:01,730
I had to look for data about them about

890
00:39:06,940 --> 00:39:03,410
this movement and well it's not really

891
00:39:11,290 --> 00:39:06,950
there but I do know that nerds and no

892
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:11,300
communities are everywhere firstly I'd

893
00:39:16,030 --> 00:39:12,890
like to put out a call to all the

894
00:39:19,359 --> 00:39:16,040
listeners to this podcast to let me know

895
00:39:23,380 --> 00:39:19,369
your favorite geek or nerd site that

896
00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:23,390
also features scientific skepticism one

897
00:39:29,890 --> 00:39:25,250
that does crop up and that is worth

898
00:39:33,300 --> 00:39:29,900
looking at is one called a I teepee now

899
00:39:36,730 --> 00:39:33,310
the cliched image of an avid video gamer

900
00:39:38,589 --> 00:39:36,740
is an adolescent male tucked away in the

901
00:39:41,050 --> 00:39:38,599
room tapping furiously at their keyboard

902
00:39:44,500 --> 00:39:41,060
in actuality the average age of a gamer

903
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:44,510
is definitely adult some sources say

904
00:39:50,559 --> 00:39:47,290
about 35 years old with almost equal

905
00:39:54,460 --> 00:39:50,569
share between male and female whether

906
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:54,470
women tend to use mobile games estimates

907
00:39:59,650 --> 00:39:56,930
of the size of the gaming markets very

908
00:40:05,109 --> 00:39:59,660
the one sauce puts the current figure at

909
00:40:07,270 --> 00:40:05,119
a high of us 136 billion dollars now

910
00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:07,280
this a bit more modest Sanks only

911
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:10,310
between 90 and 100 billion that puts it

912
00:40:16,270 --> 00:40:12,890
almost double the size of the movie and

913
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:16,280
music industries combined in third place

914
00:40:21,900 --> 00:40:18,490
behind broadcast and cable television

915
00:40:24,250 --> 00:40:21,910
so the gamer community is significant

916
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:24,260
while serious gaming has only been up

917
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:27,650
going for 30 plus years that's not

918
00:40:32,710 --> 00:40:30,410
including the arcade games like pong and

919
00:40:34,420 --> 00:40:32,720
pac-man that sort of thing comics have

920
00:40:36,819 --> 00:40:34,430
been on the market since the early 20th

921
00:40:39,670 --> 00:40:36,829
century Japanese manga go back even

922
00:40:41,890 --> 00:40:39,680
further comic book sales nowhere near

923
00:40:43,780 --> 00:40:41,900
match those of gaming but there are

924
00:40:46,510 --> 00:40:43,790
content overlaps with many games based

925
00:40:47,350 --> 00:40:46,520
on comic book characters movies based on

926
00:40:49,420 --> 00:40:47,360
video game

927
00:40:51,730 --> 00:40:49,430
are rarely successful either critically

928
00:40:53,650 --> 00:40:51,740
or financially but those using comic

929
00:40:56,290 --> 00:40:53,660
book characters such as the plethora of

930
00:40:59,410 --> 00:40:56,300
superhero action films have struck a

931
00:41:01,780 --> 00:40:59,420
deeper vein of gold the 56 films based

932
00:41:03,910 --> 00:41:01,790
on Marvel Comics that's 56 and Counting

933
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:03,920
that includes Iron Man The Hulk

934
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:05,930
spider-man cetera not to mention the

935
00:41:10,900 --> 00:41:08,930
Avengers those have been released

936
00:41:14,260 --> 00:41:10,910
worldwide have grossed a combined thirty

937
00:41:16,510 --> 00:41:14,270
1 billion dollars u.s. it's a serious

938
00:41:18,820 --> 00:41:16,520
business but why do we mention in a

939
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:18,830
skeptic broadcaster even a skeptic

940
00:41:22,420 --> 00:41:20,210
magazine where this thing came from

941
00:41:24,190 --> 00:41:22,430
well apart for the nerd factor which is

942
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:24,200
often shared between skeptics and gamers

943
00:41:31,270 --> 00:41:26,330
there is at least one site that takes

944
00:41:35,380 --> 00:41:31,280
both aspects very seriously indeed a IPT

945
00:41:38,980 --> 00:41:35,390
explanation comics which is WWE enters

946
00:41:42,490 --> 00:41:38,990
in poor taste calm we're started by two

947
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:42,500
people as a blog in 2011 it has now

948
00:41:48,370 --> 00:41:45,170
grown to dozens of contributors and some

949
00:41:50,700 --> 00:41:48,380
of them are women it changed its name to

950
00:41:53,650 --> 00:41:50,710
a IPT comics to avoid any negative

951
00:41:56,050 --> 00:41:53,660
communications or connotations and

952
00:41:58,540 --> 00:41:56,060
adventures in poor taste Brody gives

953
00:42:00,820 --> 00:41:58,550
away some of that the problems that were

954
00:42:02,650 --> 00:42:00,830
raised that's now sporting much

955
00:42:05,020 --> 00:42:02,660
scientific content alongside the

956
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:05,030
information on comics gaming gaming TV

957
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:07,210
movies and wrestling for some reason

958
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:09,650
some of this is the science of

959
00:42:15,130 --> 00:42:13,370
superheroes but Russ Dobler who's the

960
00:42:16,870 --> 00:42:15,140
editor of the science section says that

961
00:42:19,030 --> 00:42:16,880
yeah there's a whole category for that

962
00:42:21,430 --> 00:42:19,040
but we also like the methods of science

963
00:42:22,890 --> 00:42:21,440
not just the facts that's why there's

964
00:42:25,590 --> 00:42:22,900
another whole section for skepticism

965
00:42:29,670 --> 00:42:25,600
sciences loud-mouthed little brother

966
00:42:33,090 --> 00:42:29,680
that's his words in fact a apt in

967
00:42:35,620 --> 00:42:33,100
February every year as skepticism month

968
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:35,630
skepticism in pop culture and skepticism

969
00:42:39,610 --> 00:42:38,450
of pop culture but it's not just pop

970
00:42:42,100 --> 00:42:39,620
culture there are heavyweight

971
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:42,110
contributions a professor of biology at

972
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:43,930
the City University in New York

973
00:42:49,090 --> 00:42:46,130
contributed a book review taking down

974
00:42:51,070 --> 00:42:49,100
creationism another expert took a

975
00:42:53,980 --> 00:42:51,080
decidedly critical look at a new TV

976
00:42:56,140 --> 00:42:53,990
program on paranormal videos just two

977
00:43:00,130 --> 00:42:56,150
examples of the many that are skeptical

978
00:43:01,180 --> 00:43:00,140
in this website it's not nerd fanboy

979
00:43:03,670 --> 00:43:01,190
stuff

980
00:43:05,589 --> 00:43:03,680
which are not surprising as Dobler is

981
00:43:08,650 --> 00:43:05,599
also the newly elected president of the

982
00:43:11,109 --> 00:43:08,660
new york city skeptics he says I believe

983
00:43:12,670 --> 00:43:11,119
in getting beyond the echo chamber to

984
00:43:15,190 --> 00:43:12,680
reach the people who really need it

985
00:43:17,559 --> 00:43:15,200
and pop geek culture is a great way to

986
00:43:19,690 --> 00:43:17,569
do that the more skeptics that get

987
00:43:22,210 --> 00:43:19,700
involved the better the numbers look and

988
00:43:26,079 --> 00:43:22,220
the more leverage we have to open other

989
00:43:27,490 --> 00:43:26,089
doors in mainstream media there's a lot

990
00:43:29,799 --> 00:43:27,500
of good reading out there even if you're

991
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:29,809
not a gamer and this site is highly

992
00:43:33,819 --> 00:43:32,210
recommended by myself not just for the

993
00:43:35,620 --> 00:43:33,829
content but also because it takes

994
00:43:38,319 --> 00:43:35,630
skepticism into an audience that might

995
00:43:41,190 --> 00:43:38,329
previously have been largely unaware of

996
00:43:45,099 --> 00:43:41,200
what scientific skepticism really is as

997
00:43:46,690 --> 00:43:45,109
a postscript to that you have to look

998
00:43:49,559 --> 00:43:46,700
that it's not just gaming and stuff

999
00:43:52,270 --> 00:43:49,569
nerds are also highly fashion conscious

1000
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:52,280
there might be an exaggeration so while

1001
00:43:58,990 --> 00:43:55,130
you're looking at the gamers sites think

1002
00:44:00,520 --> 00:43:59,000
about the look of a nerdiness and the

1003
00:44:02,589 --> 00:44:00,530
look of nutritionist would not be

1004
00:44:07,450 --> 00:44:02,599
complete without mentioning the nerdiest

1005
00:44:12,609 --> 00:44:07,460
coolest t-shirt company snog tease which

1006
00:44:14,740 --> 00:44:12,619
is snog tease tws calm founded in 2004

1007
00:44:16,750 --> 00:44:14,750
the range features pop-culture

1008
00:44:19,660 --> 00:44:16,760
references bad puns and sometimes quite

1009
00:44:21,309 --> 00:44:19,670
heavy scientific concepts the founders

1010
00:44:24,309 --> 00:44:21,319
say they started the company in their

1011
00:44:26,099 --> 00:44:24,319
basement and faked everybody into

1012
00:44:29,260 --> 00:44:26,109
thinking that we own an actual business

1013
00:44:33,099 --> 00:44:29,270
we've even shipped a t-shirt to NASA

1014
00:44:34,820 --> 00:44:33,109
they means space so technically we're a

1015
00:44:44,710 --> 00:44:34,830
universal company

1016
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:44,720
so we're your nerdiness with pride and

1017
00:44:51,850 --> 00:44:48,210
that was geeks gamers nerds and kids

1018
00:45:09,170 --> 00:44:51,860
from the pages of the skeptic March 2019

1019
00:45:10,970 --> 00:45:09,180
vol 39 hi this is Steve novella from the

1020
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:10,980
skeptics guide to the universe podcast

1021
00:45:14,270 --> 00:45:12,930
me and my fellow rogues are really

1022
00:45:16,180 --> 00:45:14,280
looking forward to coming down to

1023
00:45:19,190 --> 00:45:16,190
Melbourne Australia for a skeptic on

1024
00:45:21,590 --> 00:45:19,200
2019 in December we hope to see all of

1025
00:45:23,690 --> 00:45:21,600
our skeptical friends down there so hey

1026
00:45:25,060 --> 00:45:23,700
we'll see you guys all down in Melbourne

1027
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:25,070
in December

1028
00:45:32,660 --> 00:45:29,570
[Music]

1029
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:32,670
hi I'm doctor Brad Makai and I'll be

1030
00:45:39,530 --> 00:45:37,050
seeing you at skeptic on 2019 I'm a GP

1031
00:45:42,110 --> 00:45:39,540
and I have patients coming in with all

1032
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:42,120
sorts of weird and wacky home remedies

1033
00:45:45,860 --> 00:45:44,010
so we're going to be having a look at

1034
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:45,870
those and seeing which one's work and

1035
00:46:06,160 --> 00:45:48,930
which ones aren't quite so successful

1036
00:46:11,150 --> 00:46:08,480
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1037
00:46:13,850 --> 00:46:11,160
zone this week coming up on next week's

1038
00:46:15,380 --> 00:46:13,860
show the final part of the psyche on

1039
00:46:17,900 --> 00:46:15,390
interviews with guest reporter Rob

1040
00:46:20,780 --> 00:46:17,910
Palmer more news and interviews about

1041
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:20,790
the upcoming skeptic on convention right

1042
00:46:26,270 --> 00:46:23,490
here in Melbourne and as ever the rest

1043
00:46:27,980 --> 00:46:26,280
is in the lap of the gods sometimes I

1044
00:46:30,650 --> 00:46:27,990
really don't know what's coming up on

1045
00:46:32,540 --> 00:46:30,660
next week's show thank you to those new

1046
00:46:34,540 --> 00:46:32,550
patrons who have come on board to help

1047
00:46:37,250 --> 00:46:34,550
support the skeptic zone financially

1048
00:46:40,070 --> 00:46:37,260
every cent of the money you send in does

1049
00:46:42,410 --> 00:46:40,080
go to help the skeptic zones stay on the

1050
00:46:44,420 --> 00:46:42,420
air in your ears on the Internet's and

1051
00:46:47,150 --> 00:46:44,430
thank you to those people who have made

1052
00:46:50,240 --> 00:46:47,160
other contributions lately much

1053
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:50,250
appreciated I think I'm still trying to

1054
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:52,170
recover from last night's wonderful Sri

1055
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:55,170
Lankan curry dinner hmm I'm gonna be

1056
00:46:59,660 --> 00:46:57,210
recovering for the rest of the week I

1057
00:47:01,760 --> 00:46:59,670
think but until the next week's show

1058
00:47:08,780 --> 00:47:01,770
this is Richard Saunders signing off

1059
00:47:10,850 --> 00:47:08,790
from Melbourne Australia you've been

1060
00:47:16,310 --> 00:47:10,860
listening to the skeptic zone podcast

1061
00:47:19,340 --> 00:47:16,320
please visit our website at WWDC be for

1062
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:19,350
show notes contacts and to access the

1063
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:22,010
back catalogue of episodes going back to

1064
00:47:28,910 --> 00:47:25,290
2008 you can follow the skeptic zone

1065
00:47:31,340 --> 00:47:28,920
podcast on twitter at skeptic zone visit

1066
00:47:34,700 --> 00:47:31,350
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1067
00:47:38,060 --> 00:47:34,710
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1068
00:47:40,430 --> 00:47:38,070
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1069
00:47:42,380 --> 00:47:40,440
zone podcast is an independent

1070
00:47:44,540 --> 00:47:42,390
production reviews and opinions

1071
00:47:46,730 --> 00:47:44,550
expressed on the skeptic zone and not

1072
00:47:49,670 --> 00:47:46,740
necessarily those of Australian skeptics